大作物。为什么没有TC ?幼年滨鸟在路上!« Arthur Morris/BIRDS AS ART

大作物。为什么没有TC ?幼年滨鸟在路上!

Your Call

和昨天不一样,我没有马参加这场比赛。(顺便说一句,我的马输了。)你最喜欢的是今天的四幅幼年滨鸟图片中的哪一张?请留下评论,让我们知道你最喜欢哪一个,以及为什么。记住,没有错误的答案。参加这些练习给每个人一个思考和学习的机会。包括我。

BIRDS AS ART Office Phone Out!

A tree fell on our phone lines while I was in Deland last week. 863-692-0906 is currently down. If you need to get in touch with BAA, please try my cell at 863-221-2372. If I do not pick up, please shoot us a text. The land line is scheduled to be repaired this coming Wednesday.

What’s Up?

Amazingly, I sold a second single cabin for the August 2023 Galapagos Photo-cruise of a lifetime. That makes world’s best Galapagos trip even better as there will be only 12 folks on the Samba (including me); a bit more room for everyone. If that last spot has your name on it, please get in touch viae-mail或尽快发短信给我863-221-2372。

Today is Sunday 31 July. I did some packing yesterday in fits and starts yesterday, and still have lots to do before I leave at 11:00am to head up to Sanford, FL to catch the Amtrak Auto Train late this afternoon. Wherever you are and whatever you are doing, I hope that you too have a great day. This blog post took about two hours to prepare (including three new image optimizations) and makes one hundred twenty-nine days in a row with a new one.

Please remember to use the B&H and Amazon links that are found on most blog pages and to use the BIRDSASART discount code at checkout when purchasing your new gear from Bedfords to get 3% back on your credit card and enjoy free second-day air FedEx. Please, also, consider joining aBAA IPT. You will be amazed at how much you will learn!

从左上角开始顺时针回到中心:Wilson’s Phalarope, JBWR;刚刚羽翼丰满的普通燕鸥,尼克森;Black Skimmer,成人撇脂,Nickerson;黑Skimmer杀死小Skimmer chick, Nickerson;日出觅食的美国捕牡蛎者,尼克森;普通燕鸥雏鸟吞咽小蓝鱼,尼克森;短喙杜威切,幼鸟,双顶翼伸展,JBWR;黑色掠食者,黎明前羊群模糊,尼克森;黑掠食者,10天大的小女孩,尼克森。

Click on the card to view a larger version.

Nickerson Beach/East Pond JBWR composite

Nickerson Beach/East Pond at Jamaica Bay (JBWR) In-the Field Workshops

JBWR的尼克森海滩和东池塘都提供了地球上最好的仲夏鸟类摄影。每个季节都有数百对黑Skimmers和普通燕鸥,以及十几对美国蛎鹬在尼克森繁殖,所以有很多大小不一、漂亮的羽翼丰满的幼鸟可供拍摄。如果水位很低,每年8月,数百只长着漂亮新鲜羽毛的年轻滨鸟在南下时都会在池塘边停留。

Nickerson often reveals nature at it rawest, most basic level. Most days we get to photograph all sorts of dramatic behaviors ranging from skimmers and terns fishing and feeding (and tending) their you. There are often chances to shoot a variety of predatory encounters — gulls eating large skimmer chicks, skimmers eating skimmer babies, and Peregrine Falcons hunting. And rarely, if we are lucky, Peregrine Falcons catching! Consider joining me to learn a ton both about bird photography and the birds.

I am taking the Auto Train north on 31 July and will happily spend all of August on Long Island. I head south on 31 August and should be back home on 1 September (barring anything unforeseen). I am offering In-the-Field sessions at both Nickerson Beach and the East Pond at Jamaica Bay Wildlife Refuge. If you are interested, please get in touch viae-mailor text me at 863-221-2372.

Whether you are a local or would like to fly in for several days of instruction — a sort of private, or small group. — at worst, IPT, LMK viae-mailso that we can work on a schedule that could possibly include both Nickerson and Jamaica Bay.

The First DeSoto IPT

If you are interested in the first DeSoto IPT, 3 1/2 Days, Tuesday 27 September through the morning session on Friday 30 September 2022, know that I just reserved a three-bedroom AirBnB in Gulfport. Share it for four nights with many multiple IPT veteran Monte Brown and me and save a ton on lodging: $83.69/night/person for a whole home. AirBnB photos available upon request. If interested, shoot me ane-mail.

Instagram

Follow me on Instagramhere. I am trying to feature both new and old images, especially images that have not appeared recently on the blog. Or search for birds_as_art.

BIRDS AS ART Image Optimization Service (BAA IOS)

Send a PayPal for $62.00 tobirdsasart@verizon.net或者拨打863-692-0906打电话给吉姆,用信用卡支付62美元。Pick one of your best images and upload the raw file using a large file sending service like Hightail or DropBox and then send me the link viae-mail.I will download and save your raw file, evaluate the exposure and sharpness, and optimize the image as if it were my own after converting the raw file in Adobe Camera Raw. Best of all, I will make a screen recording of the entire process and send you a link to the video to download, save and study.

Induro GIT 304L Price Drop

Amazingly, we have two, brand-new-in-the-box Induro GIT 304L tripods in stock. They are $699.00 each (were $799.00) and the price now includes the insured ground shipping to the lower 48 states. Weekday phone orders only: 863-692-0906. Order yoursherewhile they last.

Please Remember

你可以在亚马逊上找到一些很棒的照片配件(和必需品,比如冲浪靴!),点击上面橙色/黄色菜单栏上的Stuff选项卡。与此相关的是,如果像我这样在亚马逊上花了太多钱的博客爱好者,在网上购物时能养成点击每篇博客文章右侧亚马逊标志链接的习惯,那将是非常有帮助的。正如你所期望的那样,这样做不会花你一分钱,但会非常感激你的真诚。这样做可以与你的亚马逊Prime账户无缝对接。

Please remember that if an item — a Delkin flash card, or a tripod head — for example, that is available from B&H and/or Bedfords, is also available in the BAA Online Store, it would be great, and greatly appreciated, if you would opt to purchase from us. We will match any price. Please remember also to use my B&H affiliate links or to earn 3% cash back at Bedfords by using the BIRDSASART discount code at checkout for your major gear purchases. Doing either often earns you free guides and/or discounts. And always earns my great appreciation.

Brand-New and As-Good-As-Ever Bedfords BAA Discount Policy

Folks who have fallen in love with Bedfords can now use the BIRDSASART coupon code at checkout to enjoy a post-purchase, 3% off-statement credit (excluding taxes and shipping charges) on orders paid with a credit card. The 3% credit will be refunded to the card you used for your purchase. Be sure, also, to check the box for free shipping to enjoy free Second Day Air Fed-Ex. This offer does not apply to purchases of Classes, Gift Cards, or to any prior purchases.

Money Saving Reminder

Many have learned that if you need a hot photo item that is out of stock at B&H and would like to enjoy getting 3% back on your credit card along with free 2nd Day Air Fed-Ex Air shipping, your best bet is to clickhere, place an order with Bedfords, and enter the coupon code BIRDSASART at checkout. If an item is out of stock, contact Steve Elkins viae-mail或者打他的手机(中部时间479)381-2592。一定要提到BIRDSASART优惠券代码,并检查免费航运框。会自动升级为免费的第二天空运联邦快递。史蒂夫一直很擅长让人们了解B&H和其他地方脱销的热门商品。大商店里那些难买到的商品的等候名单可能长达一年或更长时间。史蒂夫肯定会在那之前给你准备好装备的。在过去的一年里,他一直在帮助BAA博客的人们获得诸如索尼a 1、索尼200- 600g OSS镜头、佳能EOS R5、佳能RF 100-500mm镜头和尼康500mm PF镜头等产品。史蒂夫风度优雅,乐于助人,渴望取悦他人。

Important Note

As an Amazon Associate, I earn a small percentage when you purchase from Amazon after using any of the Amazon links on the blog (including the logo-link on the right side of each blog post page). My affiliate link works fine with Amazon Prime and using it will not cost you a single cent. Huge thanks, BTW

If You Enjoy the Blog …

Please, if you enjoy and learn from the blog, remember to use one of my two affiliate programs when purchasing new gear. Doing so just might make it possible for me to avoid having to try to get a job as a Walmart greeter and will not cost you a single penny more. And if you use Bedfords and remember to enter the BIRDSASART code at checkout, you will (still!) save 3% on every order and enjoy free second-day air shipping. In these crazy times — I lost about fifty thousand dollars in income due to COVID 19 — remembering to use my B&H link or to shop at Bedfords will help me out a ton and be greatly appreciated. Overseas folks who cannot order from the US because of import fees, duties, and taxes, are invited to help out by clickinghere如果他们觉得合适,可以在博客上留下一份感谢礼物。



Gear Questions and Advice

Too many folks attending BAA IPTs and dozens of photographers whom I see in the field and onBPN, are–out of ignorance–using the wrong gear, especially when it comes to tripods and more especially, tripod heads… Please know that I am always glad to answer your gear questions viae-mail.If you are desperate, you can try me on my cell at 863-221-2372. Please leave a message and shoot me a text if I do not pick up.

This image was created on 21 August 2021 at the East Pond at Jamaica Bay Wildlife Refuge in Queens, NY. While seated on the damp mud, I used the hand heldSony FE 600mm f/4 GM OSS lensand The One, the索尼Alpha 1无反光镜数码相机。ISO 800. Exposure was determined via Zebras with ISO on the rear dial: 1/4000 sec. at f/4.5 (stopped down 1/3-stop). AWB at 7:29:44am am on a cloudy morning.

Tracking: Zone/AF-C was active at the moment of exposure and performed perfectly. Be sure to click on the image to enjoy the larger version.

Image #1: Short-billed Dowitcher — juvenile in flight

TC or Crop?

I am a huge fan of using teleconverters (TCs) for bird photography. I’ve been making quality images with TCs for several decades with three different camera systems. My big complaint was with the Nikon TC-20 as it was not very sharp. With the latest mirrorless gear, both the 1.4X and the 2X TCscan create very sharp images provided that your sharpness techniques are up to par. So why were the two flights photos, Images #1 and #2 created with the 600 f/4 lens alone? My thoughts on TCs vary when it comes to photographing fast, small birds in flight.

Here are the reasons why I left my 1.4X TC in my fanny pouch:

1-使用较短的焦距,更容易在画面中找到一只正在飞翔的鸟,也更容易跟随它并为图像定格。

2- Without a TC you enjoy a wider aperture. The wider the aperture, the better autofocus can see the subject, and the better it functions.

3-在光线较暗的情况下,不用相机工作可以使用更低的iso和更快的快门速度。

4- Without the TC you are effectively farther away from the subject and enjoy lots of extra depth of field.

5- The images made without the TC are so sharp that they allow for large crops of the Sony a1’s 51 MP superb .ARW files while maintaining image quality and fine detail.

This image was also created on 21 August 2021 at the East Pond at Jamaica Bay Wildlife Refuge in Queens, NY. Again, while seated on the damp mud, I used the hand heldSony FE 600mm f/4 GM OSS lensand The One, the索尼Alpha 1无反光镜数码相机。ISO 1250。曝光是通过斑马与ISO在后方表盘:1/4000秒。在f/4(大开放)。在多云的早上9:27:00空运。

Tracking: Zone/AF-C was active at the moment of exposure and performed perfectly. Be sure to click on the image to enjoy the larger version.

Image #2: Semipalmated Plover — juvenile in flight

The Crops

图1中的短喙多威切只占了原始像素的47%,图2中的飞行的半鸟只占了原始像素的40%。一定要点击每一张图片来查看高分辨率jpeg中明显的清晰度和图像质量。

This image was created on 28 August 2021 at Nickerson Beach Park, Lido Beach, Long Island, NY. Seated on damp sand I used the lowered, no-longer available (except from BAA) Induro GIT 304L tripod/Levered-Clamp FlexShooter Pro-mountedSony FE 600mm f/4 GM OSS lenswith theSony FE 1.4x Teleconverter, and The One, theSony Alpha 1 Mirrorless Digital Camera.. ISO 2500. The exposure was determined by Zebras with ISO on the rear wheel: 1/2500 second at f/5.6 (wide open) in Manual mode. AWB at 12:22:52pm on cloudy, windy, stormy day.

跟踪:区域/AF-C与鸟眼/人脸检测执行完美。点击图片欣赏高分辨率版本。

Image #3: Least Sandpiper — juvenile preening after bath

Crazy Preening Poses

As we saw with the first pelican image in yesterday’s blog post, birds can get into some very strange positions when they are preening. It is often difficult to figure out exactly what they are doing. IAC, note the relatively high shutter speed and the proportionally high ISO.

这张照片也是于2021年8月28日在纽约长岛丽都海滩的尼克森海滩公园拍摄的。卡塔尔世界杯亚洲预选赛Again, seated on damp sand, I used the lowered, no-longer available (except from BAA) Induro GIT 304L tripod/Levered-Clamp FlexShooter Pro-mountedPanning Ground Pod-supportedSony FE 600mm f/4 GM OSS lenswith theSony FE 1.4x Teleconverter, and The One, theSony Alpha 1 Mirrorless Digital Camera.. ISO 1250. The exposure was determined by Zebras with ISO on the rear wheel: 1/2500 second at f/5.6 (wide open) in Manual mode. AWB at 12:52:17pm on cloudy, windy, stormy day.

跟踪:区域/AF-C与鸟眼/人脸检测执行完美。点击图片欣赏高分辨率版本。

Image #4: Western Sandpiper — juvenile female bathing

Juvenile Shorebirds

The young shorebirds are beginning to head south right now. They will likely be arriving in your areas in the next two to six weeks. Thousands of worn, molting adults headed south in July. The handsome young birds with their distinctive, even patterns and warm colors, stand out from the dull and disheveled adults. Even better, having just dropped down from their Arctic and sub-Arctic summer grounds, the young birds have never seen humans before and thus, are a lot tamer than the wary adults and a lot easier to photograph.

Juvie Westerns

The long, decurved bill separates female westerns from semipalmateds. Male westerns have shorter decurved bills. Both sexes of westerns have fine-tipped bills while the bills of Semipalmated Sandpipers have blob-tipped bill. The rufous (reddish-orange) color on the scapulars of juvenile Western Sandpipers (like the bird in Image #4) are both distinctive and diagnostic as to species and age.

Shorebirds: Beautiful Beachcombers

If you found the above interesting, you will surely want to grab one of the few remaining copies of my soft-cover book,水鸟:美丽的流浪者。Written for naturalists and birders, the text tells you everything you’ve always wanted to know about North America’s sandpipers, godwits, yellowlegs, phalaropes, plovers, avocets, stilts, and oystercatchers. Topics covered include identification and aging, shorebird behavior, their incredible migrations, feeding and diet, mating and breeding strategies, eggs, nests, and young, conservation efforts, and shorebirding tips. Also included are approximately 50 species accounts covering all of the regularly occurring North American shorebird species. With 70 of Arthur’s images and 26 more by some of the world’s best nature photographers, this book contains the finest collection of shorebird photographs ever published in a single volume.

Intermediate Telephoto Lenses and Shorebirds

和我一起乘坐德索托堡IPT,学习用手持中间长焦镜头近距离拍摄水鸟的技巧。详情如下。

Unsolicited via e-mail from Pete Myers

I just spent 4 days in the field in a graduate course in bird photography taught by Artie Morris at Fort DeSoto. After almost 50 years of experience pointing cameras at birds from the Arctic to Tierra del Fuego, New Zealand and beyond, I thought I was good enough. But what I learned from Artie in just four days has taken me to a whole new level. As he aptly puts it, “birds as art,” not simply bird photography. One of those 4 days was the most satisfying I’d ever experienced, anywhere. The IPT left me euphoric about what I’d learned, and frighteningly committed to recreating my portfolio with the techniques and insights he taught me.

Via e-mail from Jim Miller

我一直在想DeSoto Fall IPT有多有趣,我学到了多少。在我困惑了这么久之后,有那么多事情突然变得有了意义。非常感谢您给我带来了这次精彩的旅行,也感谢您是一位好老师。当我上周通过原始文件工作时,我意识到600通用是一个多么神奇的镜头。谢谢你的出租!也许有一天我也能买得起。一些评论图片被附上。

顺便说一下,我们在格尔夫波特的人行道上看到的植物是蓝Porterweed。在网上花几分钟阅读一下它是值得的:它原产于佛罗里达和加勒比地区,在巴哈马群岛被用作药物,等等。我们把它放在前院的一个大锅里,它需要很多水,但它从春天到秋天都开花。再次谢谢你,阿迪。和你在一起,向你学习真的很好。

Via e-mail from Lee Sommie

I want to thank you for making the Fall 2017 Ft. DeSoto IPT such a fun and educational experience for me. I truly did not want the adventure to end. I now look through the viewfinder with an artist’s mindset. And the real bonus was making new friends with fellow students. Thank you for sharing your knowledge and enthusiasm for wildlife photography. I had a great time with you and look forward to more adventures on future IPTs.

Followed by this one

BTW. I downloaded Photo Mechanic and started using it in my workflow. Since I like using Lightroom for my adjustments, I found a way to incorporate Photo Mechanic and Lightroom together. Lightroom was driving me crazy with how slow it is to import and preview photos. I was impressed with how fast you could preview photos and start editing your photos on the DeSoto Fall IPT. Life is too short to wait for applications to import and preview photos and Photo Mechanic solves that problem.

Via e-mail from Muhammad Arif

I had a great time at Fort DeSoto. Thank you for all the instruction, for your help and pointers; my photography has already improved tremendously, and I’ve never made such good bird photos before. I wish I could’ve joined you on Monday and Tuesday morning as well, but work got in the way. It was also nice meeting the folks on the IPT. Thanks again for everything and I hope to join you at a future IPT sometime again.


desoto-fall-card-b

Fort DeSoto in fall is rife with tame birds. All the images on this card were created at Fort DeSoto in either late September or very early October. I hope that you can join me there this fall. Click on the composite to enjoy a larger version.

顺时针由左上至中间:长嘴鹬、大理石雕、里海燕鸥、大白鹭、夹鱼燕鸥、威鱼、黑腹鸻威胁展示、雪鹭、2岁黄冠夜鹭、黄冠夜鹭幼鸟。

The Fall 2022 Fort DeSoto Instructional Photo-Tours

Fall 2022 Fort DeSoto Instructional Photo-Tour #1

3 1/2 Days: Tuesday 27 September through the morning session on Friday 30 September 2022. $1899.00 includes three working lunches. Limit six photographers/Openings five.

Fall 2022 Fort DeSoto Instructional Photo-Tour #2

3天半:10月7日至2022年10月10日星期一上午会议。1899.00美元包括三份工作午餐。限制六个摄影师。

Fall 2022 Fort DeSoto Instructional Photo-Tour #3

3天半:10月31日星期一至2022年11月3日星期四上午会议。1899.00美元包括三份工作午餐。限制六个摄影师。

德索托堡位于佛罗里达州圣彼得堡的南部,是秋季候鸟和燕鸥的圣地。那年冬天,它们与数百只白鹭、苍鹭、夜鹭和海鸥一起生活在这个t形半岛上。如果运气好的话,我们应该能拍到佛罗里达最受欢迎的水鸟物种之一:大理石雕鹬。黑腹Plover和Willet很容易,美国蛎鹬几乎是有保证的。大白鹭、雪鹭、大蓝鹭、三色鹭和白鹮也很容易找到,我们几乎肯定会找到一两只温顺的黄冠夜鹭。我们会做一些褐鹈鹕飞行摄影。此外,皇家、三明治、福斯特和凯斯宾燕鸥可能也会为我们提供一些很好的飞行机会。虽然不能保证,但玫瑰spoate spobill和Wood Stork可能是预期的。我们会密切注意一到两场雷暴过后的雀形目沉降物。

在这个IPT上,所有人都将学习数字曝光的基础知识和细节。Nikon and Canon folks will learn to get the right exposure every time after making a single test exposure, and SONY folks will learn to use Zebras so that they can be sure of making excellent exposuresbefore pressing the shutter button.每个人都将学习如何接近自由和野生的鸟类,而不打扰他们,了解和预测鸟类的行为,识别许多种类的滨鸟,发现良好的情况,选择最佳的视角,看到和理解光,并通过掌握相机的自动对焦系统设计令人愉快的图像。最重要的是,你一定会学会评估风和天空条件,并了解它们如何影响鸟类摄影。你将学习如何以及为什么在手动模式下工作(即使你害怕它)。最好的消息是,你将能够把你学到的一切带回家,这样无论何时何地你都会成为一个更好的摄影师。

There will be a Photoshop/image review session during or after lunch (included) each full day. That will be followed by Instructor Nap Time.

These IPTs will run with only a single registrant (though that is not unlikely to happen). The best airport is Tampa (TPA). Once you register, you will receive an e-mail with Gulfport AirBnB information. If you register soon and would like to share an AirBnB with me, shoot me ane-mail. Other possibilities including taking a cab to and from the airport to our AirBnB and riding with me. This saves you both gas and the cost of a rental car.

A $600 deposit is due when you sign up and is payable by credit card. Balances must be paid by check two months before the trip. Your deposit is non-refundable unless the IPT sells out with six folks, soplease check your plans carefully before committing.You can register by calling Jim or Jennifer during weekday business hours at 863-692-0906 with a credit card in hand, or by sending a check as follows: make the check out to: BIRDS AS ART and send it via US mail here: BIRDS AS ART, PO BOX 7245, Indian Lake Estates, FL 33855. You will receive a confirmation e-mail with detailed instructions, clothing, and gear advice. Please shoot me ane-mail如果你打算注册或者有任何问题。


desoto-fall-card-a-layers

Clockwise from upper left to center: Long-billed Curlew, juvenile Tricolored Heron, Marbled Godwits, Great Blue Heron, juvenile Pectoral Sandpiper, Wood Stork, smiling Sea Scallop, Ruddy Turnstone scavenging needlefish, Great Blue Heron sunset silhouette at my secret spot, and southbound migrant tern flock blur.

Up Early, Stay Out Late!

Obviously, folks attending an IPT will be out in the field early and stay late to take advantage of the sweetest light and sunrise and sunset colors (when possible). The good news is that the days are relatively short in early fall. I really love it when I am leaving the beach on a sunny morning after a great session just as a carful or two of well-rested photographers are arriving. The length of cloudy morning sessions will often be extended. Click on the composite to enjoy a larger version.

Typos

With all blog posts, feel free toe-mailor to leave a comment regarding any typos or errors.

13条对大作物的评论。为什么没有TC ?幼年滨鸟在路上!

  • avatar Nancy Fischer

    The bird in No. 2 is a beautiful subject, and the detail is incredible, making it my favorite. However, catching behavior plus the cute factor would have to go to No. 3.

  • avatar 世界杯西班牙vs新西兰竞猜

    谢谢鱼博士,帕格斯,詹姆斯,托尼和苏。

    with love, artie

  • avatar Neil Hickman

    I’m in awe of the Dowitcher in flight image. I zoomed it to the max on my 27″ iMac and my eyes popped! Perfect wing position, and the bird appears to be looking at you. And SHARP?? Then there is that dreamy background. An image that makes me think “one day!” I love it! I’ll certainly remember this one.

    • avatar 世界杯西班牙vs新西兰竞猜

      Thanks for your more than kind words, Neil. I hope to do a lot better this August Remember, Sony does not suck.

      with love, artie

  • avatar David Policansky

    对我来说,第三只矶鹞是最不会整理羽毛的。因为大卫·普格斯利给出的原因,而且这只鸟似乎真的很享受自己。I was photographing some of those same species this morning on Nantucket thanks to a very low tide.

  • avatar James R Saxon

    No. 3. I like the strange looking pose. Safe travels my friend.

  • avatar David Pugsley

    #3 for me. I love unusual preening poses. They strike me as tiny, feathered ballerinas.

  • avatar Anthony Ardito

    I like #1 and #2 mainly because they are in flight. I think you could even crop more possibly.

  • avatar Sue Jarrett

    All 4 shots are great and #3 is hahahaha!!

  • avatar Adam

    Another advantage of ditching the tc for small BIF is avoiding the af slowing associated with the tc. While I haven’t seen data for Sony’s or Canon’s RF tc’s, the Canon EF 1.4x iii and 2x iii slowed the af down by 25% and 50% respectively. I still use tc’s for slower moving birds or distant subjects.

    • avatar 世界杯西班牙vs新西兰竞猜

      Thanks, Adam. That was covered to some degree by this one:

      2- Without a TC you enjoy a wider aperture. The wider the aperture, the better autofocus can see the subject, and the better it functions.

      with love, artie

      ps: not to mention some loss of sharpness with the TCs. But the quality of the top-of-the line lenses makes that loss disappear.

  • 3 1 and 2 are my favorites in that order. the pose in 3 is great and I like the bit of motion in the tail/wings. In 1 the green background is beautiful and sets off the rusty colored bird. In 2 catching the bird in the blue layer between the greens is great. And I like the wings down in both.